Get Out Of A NYC Cab Without Taking Out Your Wallet

Yellow cabYesterday was a milestone day in the history of NYC taxi cabs. For the first time ever, you can now get into a cab, get taken where you want to go, and get out of the cab without taking out your wallet to get cash or a credit card.

Most of us have experienced this wonderful feeling with Uber or Hailo in London, Toronto, Boston, Chicago, Dublin, etc, etc but it has not been possible in a cab in NYC. Until yesterday.

 The NYC Taxi and Limousine Commission (TLC) has been conducting a year long pilot program to allow mobile apps to hail yellow cabs on the streets of NYC. Until yesterday, you could hail a cab from a mobile app but you could not pay from a mobile app. But our portfolio company Hailo has completed the integration of their systems with the two credit card payment systems that are used in NYC cabs and now if you use the Hailo app, you can hail and pay with your mobile phone.

If you have Hailo on your phone and you live in NYC, give it a try. If you don't have Hailo on your phone you can download it for iOS and Android and then give it a try. I can't wait to do so myself.

#mobile#NYC

Comments (Archived):

  1. awaldstein

    Credit cards in cabs changed life in NYC. And I bet increased tips big time as well.I care less personally about taking out my wallet as I care about hailing and not waiting. Hailing out of the weather, while still socializing is the killer ap for me.Now–never taking out a subway pass and never loosing it again. Never not having enough funds and waiting on line. That excites me.Transportation innovation is innovation that truly matters.

    1. Michael Makunas

      Tipping did increase…a lot: http://www.fastcodesign.com…So be skeptical of any cabbie who complains that you are using a credit card.

      1. awaldstein

        Thanks! Seems only normal.Never have any complaints but honestly with subways, CitBike, and Uber/Hailo, I take way way less cabs.

      2. markslater

        not correct. It was not about the tips with the cabbies. It was about the trace. the tax man follows the credit card, not the cash.

        1. Michael Makunas

          I don’t think that goes against what’s in the article. Gross receipts increased. But if they’re trying to bury some of those and cards makes it harder, yeah they will still complain about taking a cc.

    2. Elia Freedman

      We have ticketless systems now for the lite rail here in Portland. I haven’t used the app yet and there of course have been some early complaints, all of which will get ironed out. For lite rail it is an incredible win as the time required to buy a ticket, assuming the machines are working, is a huge deterrent to paying.

      1. awaldstein

        I was there on business a few years ago and since you have the honor system, i simply forgot to pay then couldn’t figure out how to pay post the ride.But–great system. Like a fantasy compared to MTA.

        1. Elia Freedman

          That part is very weird. Supposedly more enforcement these days but it is awfully easy to cheat.

    3. Salt Shaker

      The value prop for Uber, Hailo, etc., varies significantly by geography. They work well in cities like SF, LA and Seattle, but there’s certainly less of a need in NYC where cabs are in abundance, and there are mass transit alternatives. I’m in Seattle now and Uber is a Godsend, when I return to NYC at the end of the month I doubt I’ll ever use.

      1. awaldstein

        Mass transit alternatives is certainly true here.But hailing a cab and clicking to have one show up are different.I ride the subway everywhere but when I don’t I’d rather use one of these services than wait for a car to drive by.

        1. Salt Shaker

          I can see the utility of using these services increasing at various times of day in NYC. For example, during rush hour or after the theater, when cabs are notoriously difficult to hail, but for everyday use the proverbial two finger whistle or a hearty “yo” works just fine for me. It’s an art form and a part of NYC culture, although admittedly a bit pedestrian.

          1. awaldstein

            No argument.A whistle is a powerful tool if there is someone around to hear it.

          2. KG18

            they can make money off the tourists and traveling business ppl alone… you are right – native New Yorkers probably won’t use it as much.

  2. Julien

    Software eating the world, one cab at a time!

    1. awaldstein

      Is software organizing the offline world or simply finding flash order around wherever you are at the moment? I bet the later.

      1. Julien

        It’s more than just organizing. It’s also changing the experiences, simplifying things, acting like a lubricant for so many ‘ancient’ actions which are in practice also very cumbersome and complex (like storing coins in a wallet). Software brings abstraction.

        1. awaldstein

          I guess…I look at it from the other side though.When I look at ZipCar, Uber, Hailo, CitiBike–the whole ecosystem of just in time, flash access points–the organizational aspect of time/place is the key.Once we have that, we have all the other stuff.Software as the organizer, to me, removes abstraction, and creates more connections, more ability to engage in life and just less waste.http://awe.sm/eGoXs

          1. falicon

            Software enables and organizes the sharing economy.The concept of a library only works with the concept of a ledger and/or card catalog (essentially the software)…we are really just building more and more libraries (substituting books for various other physical items and using modern/digital replacements for ledgers and card catalogs)

          2. awaldstein

            Agree completely.Really think the ‘sharing economy’ moniker misses the mark though.

          3. falicon

            OK – throw ‘real time’ or ‘just in time’ in front of the moniker then. That always fixes everything on the internet. 🙂

          4. ShanaC

            if you know what you are doing, it does 😉

  3. Jon Thompson

    So when is your portfolio company Dwolla going to integrate with your portfolio company Halio?

    1. fredwilson

      good question. that would be great.

      1. William Mougayar

        Or Bitcoin.

        1. andyidsinga

          coinbase :)edit: funny how the comments section starts pimping USVs portfolio. sheesh 🙂

          1. William Mougayar

            It’s all part of a conspiracy…:)

    2. JimHirshfield

      Dwolla Hailo <– sounds like a Hawaiian greeting.

  4. William Mougayar

    Cool. Could you still opt to pay non-electronically, if you wanted to?

    1. fredwilson

      i am not sure

      1. William Mougayar

        Apparently, it’s a Yes.

    2. awaldstein

      The instance of hailing a cab with your phone and an app which has your CC card embedded and then opting to pay cash in the most minute corner case.Design for the 99%, deal with the small corners way later.

      1. William Mougayar

        But I’m not sure I like this part:”Set an automatic tip percentage before you hail. You can only change your tip before you start the trip, so check that off the list before you get into your cab.”What if the driver or the ride end-up turning bad- like the driver getting lost, taking you around, or being really rude, aggressive driving that makes you throw-up, or something they do where you don’t feel like giving them 20 or 30% after the ride is over.So much for tipping based on service quality.

        1. pointsnfigures

          I find quality of cabs, and service went way up post integration of Uber and Hailo in Chicago. Cabbies have cleaner cars, and even shower before work.

          1. William Mougayar

            Yup. You can rate them afterwards. That’s a good incentive. They can dismiss them if they receive too many complaints.

        2. Anon Techie

          I don’t like this part either. Other app-cab-car services outside NYC use this to mask the total fare, by covering it up with the compulsory 20% tip, giving the passenger an illusion of lower fare, and giving driver an illusion of higher tip (while app-service nets 10% of the fare as charges for the transaction). ultimately, both the driver and passenger are paying more for the service than what they’d want to pay.

    3. pointsnfigures

      I think once you use Hailo or Uber to get the ride, your card is automatically charged. No opt out on payment. The driver gets paid via the app. Drivers I have spoken with like it because they carry less cash-less vulnerable to crime.

  5. LIAD

    curious what proportion of NYC taxi rides happen undercover, without the meter running?Tech innovations which benefit the passenger may not be equally welcome by the driver if it means their cash takings are hit.

    1. awaldstein

      Never for me so don’t know.

    2. fredwilson

      i have never seen such a thing in 30 years living in NYC and riding in cabs

      1. LIAD

        interesting. London and Tel Aviv quite different. not unheard of at the beginning of the journey for a driver to offer you a fixed price fair if you allow them not to use the meter

    3. Jon Thompson

      In your hypothetical scenario (which appears to be just that, given Fred and awaldstein’s comments) it really depends on who dictates the tech in a car, and what interest they have. If the cabbie has say and has illegitimate fares, then no, it won’t take off. If the cab company has say and all fares are legitimate, it will. Illegitimate cabbies might be discovered, if they exist. If the cab company has say, and not all fares are legitimate (I.E. a laundering operation), then it probably won’t take off. I have no idea how viable the last possibility is, just guessing based on it being a heavy cash-based business.Also, the taxi industry probably has a statistical model for the number of miles on and off the meter already. Even if it’s just a supervisor’s “hunch”

    4. Elie Seidman

      Have experienced that in other cities but never in NYC (and I’ve lived here for 14 years)

    5. andyidsinga

      the cabbie in the cab I took the the airport (in NYC) the other week ago told me that 5% of NYC cabbies are cheating in some way.I have no idea if this is true …but he went on at length about it. The discussion started when I asked him if his credit card machine was working – he told me “yes, and if it doesn’t the ride is free”

      1. LIAD

        i’ve encountered ‘credit card machine broken’ scams in small restaurants. forcing you to hunt for an ATM and pay for your meal in cash

        1. andyidsinga

          PITA! I hate it when that happens. My first trip to NYC I stumbled into a few of cash-only places. This past trip I carried a bunch of cash – which I hate doing ..and of course, didn’t use it all.

          1. falicon

            Doh – wish I had known…I would have happily taken that cash off your hands for you… 😉

          2. andyidsinga

            haha – well admittedly it was a small “bunch”

  6. reece

    i’m confused… wasn’t Uber doing this already? were they doing it illegally?

    1. Cynthia Schames

      The difference is that Hailo allegedly doesn’t cost a fortune, and uses actual taxis instead of Priuses/Lincolns/SUVs.But also, yeah, Uber did a lot of things illegally. Which: awesome, as far as I’m concerned.

      1. Richard

        There is a need for both types conpanies.

  7. Richard

    Don’t forget about fare splitting (an LGA staple).

  8. JLM

    .There is something eerily haunting about this arrangement given the backdrop of the government having taken over 3 and a half years — the time period in which America mobilized over 13MM men to fight and defeat the Japanese and the Germans in WWII — to stand up Obamacare.This use of technology is so obvious and welcome.The phone number is going to replace the SSAN one day. Babies will be assigned phone numbers and it will be their identity for life. The NSA is already well on their way to making that a reality, no?Well played.JLM.

    1. jason wright

      SSAN – an identity system of ‘security’, but for whom JLM?

      1. JLM

        .At this stage of the game, it is a meaningless acronym.SS has morphed so much that it is unrecognizable when walked backwards toward its original intended purpose.JLM.

    2. sigmaalgebra

      My take: ObamaCare was nearly all hype, promise, piein the sky, Kumbayah, big government as Big SugarDaddy security, everyone the same, no one rich, noone poor, everyone all equal (except some peoplemore equal than others, e.g., Congress), dreamystuff, and, for his poll numbers, Obama wanted toride the wave of the hype and dreams but delayObamaCare enough to be out of office before enoughpeople figured out that, as actual health caresystem design, it was a grand disaster (“If youthink that health care is too expensive now, waituntil it’s free.”), with little desire, intention,or hope that it be anything else, and repeal it.That is, Obama just wants to use the ‘promise’to keep up his poll numbers while he is inoffice and then be gone when the disaster hits.This ‘pattern’ for Obama I explained with Syriaas an example inhttp://www.avc.com/a_vc/201…and so far it appears that my claims there,on Monday, September 2nd, 2013, have beencorrect.E.g., there I wrote about Obama on Syria,”So, he’s going to make statements to pleasepeople who want the US to ‘do something’ butfind ways to back down, back out. Maybe hewill claim that Congress won’t authorize action(more likely if send up a draft bill that asksfor too much power, which Obama has now done).Maybe Congress will take so long that therewill be something else in the headlines andpeople will forget about Syria. Maybe Obamawill claim that Kerry has negotiated, with hisold buddy Assad, an improvement in thesituation or that Russia’s Foreign MinisterLavrov negotiated a great deal. Maybe theSaudis did. Maybe the rebels actually killAssad. Maybe some of the evidence that thechemical weapons were from Assad will bequestioned. Maybe he will claim that the newWhite House dog ate the DoD options paper!Maybe — the possibilities are endless.”Well, it looks like instead of Lavrov it wasPutin — close enough for government work!

      1. JLM

        .Certainly could be true.JLM.

  9. jason wright

    will Hailo be adopting a franchise model to grow its brand presence globally?

  10. Matthew Miller

    I’ve just moved to Hamburg, Germany, and they have an app called MyTaxi which is very similar (hail and payments). It’s awesome. I’d read about Uber and Hailo on here before but that was my first time experiencing an app like that. Very cool!

    1. pointsnfigures

      ankle biters…..

      1. Matthew Miller

        Sorry, I think that phrase means something different to me (usually either dogs or small children!). Do you mean MyTaxi has copied the other apps or that it’s inferior? I don’t know the history and I’ve not tried the others. I’m just glad there is an app like that here. My old town in the UK was quite small and had awful taxi service and probably won’t see apps like these for years.

        1. pointsnfigures

          It’s a Fredism. Yes, they copied and hope to get rolled up by one or the other. Groupon encountered this a lot.

          1. Matthew Miller

            Ah I see. Imitation is a form of flattery I guess. A lot of services can scale quickly but something like this must take time for each city. So the more success Hailo/Uber have then the more ankle biters there will be.

  11. Radioguy

    I am not a medallion owner, nor do I have ties to any taxi affiliation. This app and this service are illegal. They violate the Americans with Disabilities Act. As someone in a wheelchair, who would like to use this service, they cannot provide any accessible transportation. I find it both offensive, disrespectful, and outrageous , that once again, people with disabilities are completely ignored by technology. The DOJ has repeatedly made clear that websites, and apps, must both comply with section 508 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973 that mandates that apps and websites be accessible for people that are blind or visually impaired. Recent actions that have been taken by DOJ with companies ranging from Target and Jet Blue, to the Cleveland Cavaliers, have resulted in multimillion dollar consent decrees for both failure to comply with Section 508, as well as with ADA. Moreover, Uber and Halo do not provide any accessible transportation, and therefore should be the subject of a class action lawsuit.

    1. ShanaC

      why is hailo responsible as opposed to the medallion owners?

    2. Cam MacRae

      You can request an accessible vehicle through Hailo. You can use the app with the device’s screenreader (voiceover if you have an iPhone) or a bluetooth enabled braille device.

    3. andyidsinga

      question: should apps and websites have to be accessible, should the browser provide this access, or the underlying OSs?I think most accessibility functions are left to the OS today (is that right?)

    4. kidmercury

      i don’t think it is so much that you are being ignored, but often companies don’t know how to solve these problems, as well as lacking the resources needed to accomplish them. i think there is an opportunity for companies that deeply understand a specific disability and then creating a suite of services to meet the lifestyle requirements of individuals with the identified disability.

  12. ShanaC

    Except I still prefer mass transit. :DBut seriously, I think mobile and the technologies surrounding and in them (as they move into internet of things) will affect traffic and transportation for a long time

  13. falicon

    You know more about these things than me, but I don’t really get the big win here.It feels like a nice moment in time (and a bit of a solution looking for a problem), but that will pass quickly and be mostly forgotten…not because of anything to do with Hailo, but more to do with solving a niche problem (cabs) instead of the bigger thing (mobile as concierge and wallet).If a paying for anything could be done as easily from your phone as it is with a credit card right now (Squares vision & mission I believe)…and communicating with any service via your phone is simple (the thing that is *very* fragmented right now)…then what does someone need a specific app for?So I think it’s a nice idea (I RARELY use cabs so I wouldn’t bother and just might be the exception)…but I don’t really want a single app for each service (city cabs, city bikes, mass transit, each restaurant, each public service, etc.)…I want one payment app, I want one concierge app, and I want them all to be simple, cheap, and efficient (with great design).It shouldn’t be about the vertical (cabs), it should be about the application (payment or concierge service).Am I the exception?

    1. ShanaC

      nope, but that would mean getting very different companies colluding.

      1. falicon

        I didn’t say it would be easy…but that’s part of where the value is.Visa, MasterCard, American Express, and Discover all did these sorts of things at one point in time…so it’s not impossible (and I think is actually inevitable).

        1. pointsnfigures

          when everyone has driverless cars, big win.

          1. falicon

            hopefully they’ll fly then too…but by then, I’ll just complain that they haven’t perfected the ‘molecular transport’ system yet…I can always find something to complain about 🙂

          2. andyidsinga

            whenever the discussion of driverless cars comes up make the wise-crack:I WILL NEVER DRIVE A DRIVERLESS CAR, AND NEITHER WILL YOU!#imhereallweek

          3. Aaron Klein

            +1 Andy. 🙂

    2. awaldstein

      Is payment the killer app here?Don’t think so.Which is worse:Pouring rain, no umbrella, four blocks from the subway at the ‘no cab time of day’ and the ability to click to call a car?Or not having to take out your cc card?

      1. falicon

        This is actually my point. Both payment and concierge service are killer apps…but not in a ‘vertical’ way.The times you are stuck in the specific situation you mention are not common enough to the average person…and technically what’s the difference between taking your CC our and taking your phone out? At least with the credit card, you don’t have to worry about battery life, tech glitches, proper button pushing, etc. etc. etc.It’s a nice to have on all fronts, but it really just shifts the problems from one realm to another…and that’s one of the big side effects of “a solution in search of a problem”…

        1. PhilipSugar

          I would agree that travel is not problem that hits everyone, or even most people. But it is most definitely the 80/20 rule in that 80% of the spend is done by 20% of the people. As a matter of fact I would say it is much more concentrated. That means you can make good money by capturing the 20% or more likely the 1%. I am not the norm but in the last two weeks I will have taken 15 flights, 5 Acela rides, been out of the country twice, and slept in my own bed one night. I love the subway, but you can bet I have Hailo and Uber on my phone. You can bet when I am dragging I just want to pay and leave.

          1. falicon

            Yes – at that point, when you are beaten down, you’ll pay just about anything for convenience and comfort…and agree, that can be a *very* nice business to be in.Hopefully you are crushing the sales while you’re out on the world tour! 🙂

          2. awaldstein

            It is something that touches most in metro areas.

      2. Timothy Meade

        Tap your phone three times in your pocket…

    3. PhilipSugar

      I’m not sure. In some sense Halio has essentially done what you are talking about. The payment app is just the credit card that you register. You have to use the app to get the cab. I will say hailing an car by phone is just pretty damn convenient.I’ll be in NYC Sunday and Monday, and while I take the subway everywhere, getting that black car to the airport is just nice.

      1. falicon

        I guess what I’m saying is that, it’s a good idea, but I don’t want to deal with the Hailo app…I want to skip straight to the step where I have just one app that has the ‘hail a cab’ feature…and just one other app that has the ‘pay the waiter’, ‘pay the cab’, and ‘pay the store clerk’ features regardless of how I got into that situation (ie. what the credit card does now).One of the apps I have and enjoy right now is the Dominos Pizza app…super slick. You can order and track everything without ever dealing with a human (until you show up to pick up your food)…it’s nice and I use it (so I do believe people will use Hailo in droves too)…but I don’t use it often, and I often forget that I even have it (unless my kids are begging for Dominos)…still, it would be ‘better’ in my world if it was more like my ‘contacts’ list and I was able to do all that it does but for any ‘take out’ that I wanted to order (and then expand that to ‘order anything’).When a second pizza place, say Pizza Hut, introduces the same app for their stores…I’m not going to install it (or at best, it would replace my Dominos one if I prefer that pizza product)…simply because of app fatigue (and the fact that they pay off is not that much over the ‘old’ way of just saving the number in my contacts and picking/calling on-demand)…

        1. pointsnfigures

          Sidetrack pizza story. Offensive lineman at a highly ranked D1 institution used to order Dominoes pizzas after practice. They’d call and say, “Don’t cut it. I won’t pay if you cut it.”. Driver would deliver a whole pizza, uncut. They’d fold it in half and eat it like a sandwich.

          1. falicon

            Had they never heard of a calzone? But awesome story anyway! 😉

    4. kidmercury

      i think it’s gotta integrate with the cab network. that’s why you need a specialized app.

      1. falicon

        That would mean you need a specialized communication layer between the cab network and the Hailo backend…but not nec. at the app level (where consumers sit).Ordering a cab, ordering a pizza, getting my dry cleaning picked up, shipping a package, etc….all should be one ‘contacts driven’ type of app…at least I *wish* it was 🙂

        1. kidmercury

          but the consumer would still need to download hailo, right?sounds like what you want is the google/apple version of this. with all these apps, i tend to think if any of these companies can prove that the market is big enough, google/apple will step in and acquire or clone.

          1. falicon

            Yes to wanting the Google/Apple version.The problem with Hailo as ‘the’ app is that it ties me into a specific vertical frame of mind…how do they extend beyond hailing cabs? The system they are building could do it, but I think the name, the app, and their approach/thinking will limit their ability to actually execute on it (and leave the big opening for Google/Apple to step in and claim it if there proves to be a lucrative market there)…

          2. kidmercury

            i largely agree with you. i would prefer the google version.though what i would really prefer is an app for all things specific to my geo-locality. i.e. a chicago app, an nyc app, etc. craigslist is sorta the web version of this. foursquare sorta is too, though i really think a company needs to focus specifically one one geo-locality; perhaps even a tinier region, like a neighborhood within a city. i.e. hyperlocal. i think such an app could really benefit from having e-hailing as a feature.the question then becomes whether hailo and its peers can be the API providers to such geolocal apps, or if they are destined to be acquired by google/apple.

    5. panterosa,

      ME WANT TOO!!

  14. jason wright

    Google Car + Hailo Pay + Apple finger print reader = no cab drivers.did TLC miss this innovation coming to its members very soon?

    1. Elia Freedman

      Teleportation for the win!

  15. Eliot Pierce

    When are they going to bring back the Checker cab?

  16. pointsnfigures

    Uber and Hailo are really balance sheet plays in a way. Just like AirBnb, Zipcar, SpotHero, ParkWhiz, Desktimeapp.com, Nextspace.us etc. They take idle assets that sit as “inventory” on the balance sheet and turn them into more productive assets. The long game for them is very disruptive to existing economics if they execute. As everyone knows, inventory is an asset, but it’s really a cost when it doesn’t turn. These apps create efficiency, and more turnover. That means profits.

    1. awaldstein

      Zip Car and AirBnB are dramatically different as the inventory is owned on one, not so on the other. They loose if a car is not rented, not so with your spare bedroom.Zip Car already exited–no?

      1. pointsnfigures

        I don’t know if they exited. Was merely suggesting them as another example. Zip Car is the reverse. I free up my balance sheet inventory by not owning a car, and use Zip Car instead. Zip Car found a niche in rental car industry. Was too hard to rent a car for an hour or two.

        1. awaldstein

          Think Zip got bought by Avis.

          1. Matt A. Myers

            Don’t know where else to make this comment … so here works.Uber could easily get into the Zip Car market as well – having self-driving cars go to someone’s location, dropping off the car for the person to either a) drive themselves, or b) drive them hands-free.Who wins in that game then comes down to cost of technology – and how pretty and functional the cars are.

          2. awaldstein

            I think of this differently.The issue is not technology it’s physical space to park the cars. ZipCars works cause its everywhere and ‘everywhere’ in urban centers (which is the only place they make sense) is a scarcity.It’s value is that it connects you to a car wherever you are. Creating ubiquity out of scarcity of location is its competitive advantage and its key.It protects that by always returning a car to its home location. These compete with Hertz no more than CitiBike competes with day long bike rentals. Different beasts.

          3. Matt A. Myers

            Just to add.. Once we reach self-driving cars then their ‘parking spot’ will be the road’s they’re driving on, except for when fueling or recharging.

          4. awaldstein

            I’ll take your word for this as I know nothing abt this. I do know that there is no more space magically growing in NYC and space and just in time location based business are locked together.

          5. Cynthia Schames

            Yes, they did.

      2. Matt A. Myers

        Uber will own cars, self-driving cars. They will own the middleperson and get rid of the employee – a lot of profits they are trying to keep.Google and Uber – The $258 Million Play – http://mattamyers.tumblr.co

        1. awaldstein

          Bold thinking but not convinced:)

          1. Matt A. Myers

            Not convinced yet either. Self-driving cars alone will take a lot of time before people will start to get comfortable with them. I think people could become comfortable with them – maybe not in all circumstances.

        2. ErikSchwartz

          I kind of doubt Uber has a much of a business if they own cars. The whole point of Uber is that they do not have to own cars, that they monetize an asset that someone else is paying for and they take a cut.If Uber doesn’t have a rider for all its cars it does not cost them anything. If they own the cars it does.

          1. Matt A. Myers

            That is how you gain market share/a customer base and brand awareness. It’s then easy to do the second business with highly reduced risk.

          2. ErikSchwartz

            That other business (owning cars) is a crappy business.

          3. Matt A. Myers

            If you remove the cost of the drivers, it’s disruptive and highly profitable.. Not sure how that whole scenario will unfold though. Transportation is becoming more of a right in society’s eyes, and so in some sense it should become a public utility – even non-mass transportation. Might not be for a few decades mind you.

          4. ErikSchwartz

            Do you really think drivers are the expensive part of the business? The expensive part of the business is capex sitting idle because of lack of demand outside of peak times.

          5. Matt A. Myers

            With cost going down, use will go up – less idling time.With not needing drivers, then longer distances would be cheaper too – especially during non-peak hours when there is the extra availability.The math will certainly workout in favour of driverless cars, and it being smart owning the cars – if you’re following certain constraints anyway.

      3. kidmercury

        getaround is airbnb for cars. rent someone else’s car when they are not using it. i’ve used it a number of times, absolutely love it. they have this thing where the car owner gets something installed on their car and the renter downloads the app which allows the renter to open the door, thus obviating the need for a key exchange. totally awesome. plus there’s insurance on the car ($500 deductible). extra awesome.

        1. LE

          Amazing. Back in the day you wouldn’t let your neighbor borrow your car.I wonder about the mileage on the car as well. This is not “enterprise” where all the miles are free. Miles on a car directly relate to the resale value of the car as well as the wear and tear.The car rental companies are a well oiled efficient machine of buying, maintaining, reselling autos in a time period (at scale) that allows them to earn a profit (with competition). Very efficient.Here the auto owner inevitably takes a hit by a thousand needles because they don’t really perceive the damage to the value of their vehicle by usage here and there. (Case with someone allowing usage on their newer type car). Much different than with an apartment rental.They have also tapped into a market of people who I’m guessing (in addition to the above) just want transportation and don’t care how old or in what condition. (Case where the last point isn’t relevant since car is fully depreciated and won’t really lose if it has 105,000 miles vs. 98,000 miles it’s already worth jack squat.)I’m going to check their website I’m curious about how they handle the insurance end of it.

          1. kidmercury

            i did it because it is the cheapest, but there are folks who want very specific vehicles as well as the ability to rent at unconventional times.warren buffet is an investor in getaround which i found to be interesting. it’s one of my favorite companies to emerge on the tech scene.

          2. LE

            I can see making money from this in a non-obvious way.For example this guy charges $68 per day:http://www.getaround.com/yetiSo I’m thinking “hmm what if I buy a late model car for someone, they pay me a reduced rate (with no money down) and they manage the car (clean it up all that jazz) but get lions share of usage.” This could work. (Or I supply cars to a gas station or other business that could keep them clean…)Then I saw this:These fees will be incurred once for every rental. They include a 40% commission (“Getaround Commission”) charged to the Owner for the rental and a $1.00 booking fee (“Booking Fee”) charged to the Renter for the reservation of a Getaround vehicle. Getaround Commission provides for the cost of insurance, 24/7 roadside assistance, customer happiness,and marketing for rental demand.The vig is 40%!Wow is that going to attract competition (I talked before about having pricing low enough that it scares other off this is the exact opposite).At the very least they should state or break this out differently so it comes to 40% but doesn’t appear to be 40%.

          3. kidmercury

            i don’t blame them for their aggressive pricing and would have done the same if i were in their shoes. in many instances it is still cheaper than renting a car. also, the insurance and roadside assistance stuff is necessary. barriers to entry here are going to be tough, which is why there are more competitors using the zipcar model (not truly peer to peer).

          4. Salt Shaker

            Not entirely familiar w/ the biz model here, but if a renter gets into a serious accident then the owner of the vehicle can still be sued, even if the renter signed a liability waiver. If the brakes or steering on the vehicle are faulty, for example, it would be hard to absolve the vehicle’s rightful owner. I’m just saying…

          5. markslater

            Sidecar too.

        2. awaldstein

          Thanks for this share.I love businesses that are a snarl of logistics to normalize.The big issue with this one is reliability. Cars break, run poorly and it is infuriating.Checking it out now.

          1. kidmercury

            for sure. i got a car on airbnb and the tire was pretty flat. engine did not start with confidence either. there is a case of “you get what you pay for” with some of these things when you go the budget route. i generally find the discount to be worth the tradeoff — but certainly not on all trips. on some of the trips to more deserted locations i made sure the car was decent and the car owner was highly rated.

          2. LE

            Cars break, run poorly and it is infuriating.There is an entire segment of the population (not me) that doesn’t take life that seriously. Really. There isn’t the same degree or sense of urgency and things working correctly. They just roll with the punches.My wife, who is from a different upbringing and generation, when we started dating, told me that she knew she couldn’t or shouldn’t jerk me around and be lackadaisical by how serious I was and things that I said [1]. If I told her “we are going out Saturday night” she knew not to call me up and say “oh I’m going out with my girlfriends” or she might not have another date.[1] She learned by stories I told her not because of anything “warning” I gave her. Stories are a great way to give people the lay of your land.

          3. awaldstein

            Not with transportation.Are you laissez faire that your flight is delayed and you miss your connection? Few are.Were the thousands of Zip Cars users in NYC last weekend that lost Easy Pass rights and ended up in countless lines with nothing to do but get honked at and wait– easy about this? Not!Transportation businesses fill gaps. That’s why they are hard to do. People are only forgiving to a point.

          4. LE

            Not with transportation.Agree.But one of the things that happens when you get older is you have statistically been burned more so you tend to be more hyper alert and take all sorts of precautions. Because you think of the “what ifs”.Here’s an example of that.If you take a cruise many times you have to fly out of, say, Florida.So the cruise might leave in the PM so you fly in in the AM and all is fine.But what happens if your flight is delayed and you miss the cruise shove off?You have to fly to the next port which of course is a royal pain. You lose several days (takes time for a ship to get there!) and have expense etc. Might lose 2 to 3 days of a 7 day cruise.So depending on your risk adverseness a smart strategy is to fly in the night before. For the price of a hotel room you mitigate some of that risk.Now if it’s your first cruise you might not do that and might take your chance. But if you fly alot you might automatically recognize the risk “wow flights are often delayed” and/or if you cruise much you might have gotten burned so you take the precaution. Even if you don’t fly much.So my point is yes you are correct with transportation. But I think getting burned is the key to preparedness.

        3. markslater

          love the ride-sharing model. It has the potential to solve so many problems in the city.Now if someone could focus on activating other pockets of “dead inventory” in our lives through sharing…..Toys – 95% of my childrens toys are in great condition and go unused. Why cant i sing up for a monthly “toy-box” delivered to me full of toys i have selected from a co-operative that aggregates the overwhelming derth of supply…It would be like having a birthday once a month…. my house will be cleaner, my child more engaged, the planet free of landfills and omnipresent chinese containerships full of plastic, and money in my pocket to go to the pub……its the airbnb for toys and i want to build it.

          1. kidmercury

            there are a number of “netflix for toys” companies. toygaroo, sparkbox, babyplays. not sure how they’re doing. one of them, i think it was toygaroo, was featured on shark tank. got funded, but entrepreneurs struggled.

          2. markslater

            timing…..like anything.Question is – if their timing was off, whats to think its right now?- macro shift to sharing economy taking hold- Advance in mobile technology allowing for “sea change” improvements to UX/UIhmmmm….

          3. kidmercury

            i definitely think it can work. i don’t know for sure, but i suspect entrepreneurs who have tried this model before simply struggled with the pricing/economics of it, as well as understanding the true motives of the customer (save money? save time toy shopping? greater selection of toys? better chance of finding toys kid actually likes?)

      4. LE

        They loose if a car is not rented, not so with your spare bedroom.I just read somewhere that airbnb is (possibly) driving up rents in NYC.The idea is that if people can rent out their place then they can afford to pay more. As a result, the unintended consequence is more dollars chasing the same housing inventory.Whether this is actually happening or not (and as I like to always ask “what’s the scale and scope”) doesn’t matter. The fact is it makes total sense that this will happen.Consequently “not so with your spare bedroom” is a loss because it changes from “icing on the cake” to “the cake”.

        1. awaldstein

          Great comment.So essentially, Airbnb is creating a B & B economy at a broader level for everyone.

          1. LE

            My brother in law (in his 20’s on the UWS) was loving airbnb for some time. Then two things happened.1) He got married. And his new wife didn’t like the idea of all these strangers at the house.2) He told me that (like in Springsteens song) the nature of the airbnb renters has changed where he no longer feels as confident renting out his place. So with the scale and pulling in the masses it’s not the way it was at the start with the early adopters.This could either be one data point anecdote or could be a canary in the airbnb coal mine.As I’ve stated before I can’t imagine renting anything out on airbnb. But I rationalized that the people who are doing airbnb are primarily much younger (not all but enough to create the critical mass) and they don’t have the same attachment to physical goods that older people do. Because more has been given to them. Easy come easy go. Non possessiveness. [1][1] Same as younger people not needing cars. Why do you need a car if mom and dad give you everything you want and shuttle you around and rarely hassle you because they are your friends? Wasn’t that way for me back in the days of parental lockdown.

          2. awaldstein

            I don’t think it is is age as much as income.I don’t care if my place sits empty–well actually its never empty as I have to have a cat sitter for Sam.Others do.

          3. Cynthia Schames

            I agree about the generational differences. You raise an amazing (though potentially incendiary) point about easy come, easy go mentality of many of the generation of Air BnB-ers.I’m an “early digital native”, having started my tech career in 1994 on the cusp of the digital revolution–but I also was raised by parents from the Depression era, whose hard-earned possessions held great meaning.So I sit somewhere in the middle on this. I take very good care of the *things* I have, because I don’t have the “crunch all you want, we’ll make more” attitude of the 20-something or even many 30-somethings. But at the same time, I’m highly responsive to and interested in innovation.

        2. kidmercury

          yes. internet services that excel at resource sharing, i.e. inventory optimization, are where it’s at in my opinion.

        3. ShanaC

          I could believe that

    2. Matt A. Myers

      Uber is going in the direction of testing the driverless-car route. That will be interesting to watch, especially on the implications of a lot of jobs no longer being needed, salaries not needing to be paid – putting more pressure on an inefficiently managed/governed society.

      1. salient

        umm, sorry but you are wrong and you should read tech “news” more carefully. Uber is NOT buying Google Driverless cars – techcrunch posted a fairytale of a story (post from the future) and a bunch of bloggers and readers just fell for it. It clearly states in the techcrunch story that this is post from the future (2023). I would edit your blog post as well. Also, Google DOES NOT (yet) have 2500 driverless cars.Here is the original TC story: http://techcrunch.com/2013/…Here is Slate’s story on people taking this seriously: http://www.slate.com/blogs/

        1. Matt A. Myers

          “July 25, 2023” which is a standardized structure in all news content, and as the only real hint that it’s fake news – is me considered not reading the news carefully?That’s not ‘clearly states’ – sorry, but that’s misleading at best.Anyway, there’s no reason this isn’t in their road map. I didn’t think Google had driverless cars announced or being promoted as a consumer product – though it is possible they are working on one or to fit cars by other manufacturers with their technology.Not sure why the Slate guy was surprised by people being tricked into believing an article that states items as facts – with the only unclearly stated thing being the date – which fits in with standardized content formats, and which our brains automatically ignore once we know the structure.

          1. salient

            lol. Good try. The date was not the only indication that it was a fake/spoof. Let’s take a look at some of my fave parts: 1. “In general, the move to so-called driverless cars and on-demand transportation services has resulted in faster commute times and less congestion in many major cities over the last five years. “2. “Shares in Uber, meanwhile, continue to soar. Its stock was up a whopping 10 percent in after-hours trading on news of the deal, bringing shares to an all-time high.”Unless Uber has gone public, and only you know. Come on. Read up (and maybe a little fact checking) next time before you make bold statements. I only care because you a regular commenter and this is a massively popular blog and is known to have one of the best communities on the web.

          2. Matt A. Myers

            1. I don’t fully read everything that’s posted on sites like TechCrunch.If you check the written date of everything you read, and fact check everything you read – then I’m just going to call you a liar – or you don’t get through very much content and/or it consumes your whole day.It’s usually safe to assume that headlines and initial paragraphs of articles that you’re not being lied to – unless it’s April Fools day.The fact that the author and the editor of Techcrunch put this kind of article on a regular day, without a blatantly obvious headline or introduction as such, doesn’t warrant your “Come on. Read up next time before you make bold statements.”Should I just the same reply to you to be a little more reasonable and rational in your replies to someone who was lied to in a slick way?No, I shouldn’t, neither is warranted.2. I remembered seeing that part, and I had assumed secondmarket shares traded – or within the company, etc.. I don’t know the details of how all of that works – though internal valuations of companies do exist, so not sure why you think it’s an irrational option.So if Techcrunch keeps this up, it’s going to be more and more entertainment as opposed to posting facts – of which fact checking takes too much time to check everything people write when you’re skimming a site for news, and a source that’s purportedly an accurate and reliable.

  17. Matt A. Myers

    Too bad this wasn’t available the week of AVC’s 10th anniversary!

  18. Brad Dickason

    I’ve been using Hailo for a few months now after meeting the team at the USV Product Summit. Great experiences so far, and I especially recommend using it when you see a 30+ minute cab line at JFK.Excited to try the payment plan today.One thing I haven’t seen in Hailo’s e-mail communication is how they take their cut. Glad they called it out very clearly on this blog post.

    1. takingpitches

      JFK. Excellent use case. Those long lines are vicious; seeing you skip the line and step into a cab does not cause a riot? 🙂

      1. Brad Dickason

        The cab driver I contacted pulled into the ‘private cab’ lane and didn’t go through the standard cab stand line. I’m not sure if this was legal but he called me and let me know what he was doing. Worked for me 🙂

        1. takingpitches

          Love that. Worth it for both you and him (since he doesn’t have to wait in the taxi pen)

  19. Matt A. Myers

    People in the comments seem to be missing the main value here, and that’s reducing friction in the transaction.

    1. falicon

      You either have to pull out cash, your credit card, or your phone…two of the three are single step ‘pulls’…guess which one actually isn’t?

      1. Matt A. Myers

        Not necessarily re: phone, for when ordering the cab – having a pre-authorize payment option?

        1. falicon

          It shifts the when, but not really action.In one scenario, you pull your phone out to initiate the transaction/event.In the other scenario, you pull your credit card (or cash) out to end the transaction/event.The phone situation can save time on the front end (you can stay doing what you are until the cab comes to you) and the back end (you have prepaid)…I think that’s the main value here….again, good value…but not as big a win as I think it could/should/will be…

          1. Matt A. Myers

            You’re skipping the step of finding / waving down or calling a cab in your example – if not using a phone app.

          2. falicon

            That’s what I meant by being able to save time while you wait for a cab (vs. having to wave one down)…the phone app def. saves you time…I can’t argue that at all.It’s a win.I just don’t know if the time savings is enough of a ‘big win’ as the hype/media is making it out to be…so I guess what I’m saying is that this is a case where I just don’t see the “big win” that excites a USV for example…it’s most def. a nice little business that I expect to do well (until the bigger, all-inclusive concierge service app comes along and really wins).But again, I’m likely the exception here and clearly missing something…I have a strong history of that… 🙂

  20. Aaron Klein

    I had one of those “first experience as a bad experience” events with Hailo last week. I’ll definitely try it again when I’m there next week, because I’m sure this isn’t typical.I set up my account in advance, and tried to hail a cab after a lunch meeting with it.Within a minute or two, I had a cab who had accepted my hail. About four minutes later, my phone rang with the driver nowhere in site but claiming to be somewhere along the block and asking me to walk to him.I walked up and down the block, asking him to honk or wave his arm or something. He just kept saying “keep walking.”Weirdest thing ever — and I’ve hailed a few cars via smartphone apps. I finally gave up and found another way.The interesting thing is that the driver marked the ride as “complete.” I was on the run so perhaps I missed it, but I found no quick and simple way to submit feedback on the driver.Last time something like this happened to me with Uber (a driver who ran 20m late picking me up because “the GPS system is down”), it was as simple as tapping one star to get a message from their community team, and a courtesy credit at that.Might be something Team Hailo might want to consider. Looking forward to trying it again.

    1. falicon

      “Keep walking” – so awesome…eventually you’ll get to where you are going and won’t need the cab anyway 😉

      1. Aaron Klein

        Ha! It might have been Bloomberg’s new fitness program that I ran into! 😉

        1. pointsnfigures

          did you have a big gulp?

          1. Aaron Klein

            It was Coke Zero. I thought I was safe!

  21. pointsnfigures

    would we fit in the cab?

    1. kidmercury

      how tall are you like 6’5″……which means dude on the right must be pushing 7’……

      1. pointsnfigures

        I am 6’5″. Chris Gandy, who has a very good insurance agency is 6’9″. He played at Illinois, and in the NBA. The other guy is a Hall of Famer, Artis Gilmore. 7’2″.Now you really get respek for people my size that take the ball to the hole and dodge elbows and armpits.

        1. Cynthia Schames

          Those are some very tall drinks of water indeed!

    2. Donna Brewington White

      Add an “s” and yes. One each. Although Uber has an SUV version. That may be your ticket. :)Have you tried Hailo in Chicago? I have to be there in November and am thinking of giving the Chicago version a try. Although not sure they operate on the North Shore.

      1. pointsnfigures

        I haven’t done Hailo yet. Used Uber. Look me up when you are here, I’ll buy you a drink.

        1. Donna Brewington White

          Would love that! Haven’t received the final meeting schedule.. Will DM you closer to the dates. Novermber 1-3 or something like that.

    3. ShanaC

      yes

      1. jason wright

        do you carry your money in a wallet Shana?

        1. ShanaC

          in a bank account 😀

  22. sigmaalgebra

    For some months I didn’t ‘get it’ with mobile: ThenI saw women and gossip (mostly just a voiceapplication), trades people, e.g., electricians,ordering things, say, having the electric utilitycome out and do a disconnect (another voiceapplication), and now taxis (a data applicationusing the Internet).Hmm …. “Be wise; generalize” (from Max Zorn,famous for Zorn’s Lemma, a relatively easy to userestatement of the axiom of choice in set theory inmathematics).So, with a mobile device, can walk around wherewouldn’t carry a ‘desktop’ but still can get to theInternet. So, find situations where getting to theInternet, hopefully where the user doesn’t have totype much, is valuable but where the user is’mobile’ and, thus, can’t use a desktop and needs asmall device. Then write an app for that. I don’tknow if Steve Jobs saw that or not.

  23. jason wright

    good news for destination Bronx, unless you carry your money in a purse.

  24. Donna Brewington White

    I love everything about the idea of Hailo but have had some glitches.Like @aaronklein:disqus I called a taxi that said it was there but I never saw it and ended up taking another one. Then got charged $5.00 for the taxi that I never saw.At least twice, there was no taxi available even though I was in Manhattan and with frequent attempts for about 10 minutes.On the positive side, whoever runs the Twitter site for HailoNYC does an excellent job of interacting.And the one taxi ride that did work was one of my best ever. The driver even accommodated a special need that I had.I will definitely try Hailo again. Eager to see how this works during my visit to Chicago in November. Some of the glitches may be due to my not being a frequent taxi user and missing some sort of nuance.Maybe Hailo should issue an online guide for us hicks.

    1. awaldstein

      Wherever there is a a person at the end of the string you will have these glitches.Human bugs are just part of the process.It amazes me that there aren’t more.

  25. Tom Labus

    Somebody do a “hey cabbie” app (audio). That’s more fun!

    1. awaldstein

      Replaces my cab whistle.

  26. jason wright

    so my mother would still have to get her purse out, or is Hailo a gender neutral carrier?

  27. baba12

    I feel bad using a credit card when I deal with small businesses. It is much easier for Walmart and Target to get a good deal on rates with credit card companies. A small business tends to get slammed hard having to pay anywhere between 2 and 4% in transaction processing fees.If you are a cab driver and make about $300 after a grueling 12 hour day only to find out that you lost $10 in transaction fees, plus now you have to account that money in your tax returns as well. Small businesses don’t have the same benefits that larger business get with scale and also tax breaks etc.Yes from a consumer standpoint it is all convenient and we can agree that it is free market economics at work and so tough luck survival of the fittest. Unfortunately in reality it truly isn’t a free market and the deck is stacked against these mom and pop shops and cabbies, but thats the way it is many will state.I always try to see if I can pay in cash if I can help out.

    1. pointsnfigures

      tell them to use Venmo. Transfer cash between people and business at no charge.

      1. baba12

        Yes, but Venmo isn’t the choice of most consumers either, and they could use Dwolla as well, but these are not prevalent in most places.I’d like to see USV make Hailo accept Dwolla transactions, and publicize Dwolla further. I have a Dwolla account but so far I have only done 3 transactions totally. So even though there maybe better, cheaper solutions for small businesses to adopt, consumers are not yet willing to adopt these services. Few small businesses have signs which say they accept Dwolla transactions, my gut instinct says that they are wallowing in the transactions processing services land till (not waiting) to be acquired by a VISA or Mastercard. Dwolla’s mission when it started was to lower the costs of transactions but I believe with big investments in them the exit strategy is to be bought up. We shall see..

    2. LE

      “using a credit card when I deal with small businesses”I wouldn’t feel bad for small business over this.Small business can and does play games that larger businesses can’t and won’t. The additional fees while not ideal pale in comparison to the way a small business can make money in other ways.If you are a cab driver and make about $300 after a grueling 12 hour day only to find out that you lost $10 in transaction fees, plus now you have to account that money in your tax returns as well.Exactly my point. You are saying that you feel bad that they are paying a higher percentage but then you are saying “you have to account that money in your tax returns as well”.So they are pocketing a smaller amount of cash than the major haul they used to take.Oh anyway this:If you are a cab driver and make about $300 after a grueling 12 hour dayIf you have a shitty job the idea is to work hard and not have a shitty job. If you came from another country and have a shitty job it’s a better job than the one you had back in the country you left.Not to sound like the Rodney Dangerfield character in Caddy Shack but the world wouldn’t operate very well if there were not people in shitty jobs. Not everybody can be at the top.And if you don’t like driving a cab in NYC move to a place (like Orlando Fl.) and you will have a nicer place to drive a cab. Can’t do that because your family is in NYC metro? I guess you are out of luck.

  28. Prokofy

    Is this really more about making New York safe for Uber?

  29. Cynthia Schames

    So here’s the thing: Hailo NEVER has a cab available in NYC when I try it. Never. Not once.So, in concept: awesome. In reality, not so much yet.

  30. Rick

    This is not entirely accurate Fred. For at least the past two weeks I’ve been getting out of a NYC cab and not taking out my wallet by using the Way2ride app from Verifone. You cannot, as of this writing, hail a cab from the app, and it doesn’t work with non-Verifone media cabs, but I’ve used it several times with success.To be honest, I’m not sure about the hailing a NYC cab proposition. Either they are easy to find or, if not, they don’t bother responding to a hail request, cause they are busy enough or changing shifts. Nevertheless, I plan to try Hailo.

  31. markslater

    i wonder whether New york is an optimal market for e-hailing.Oh and your rides in aggregate just got x% more expensive. (verifone takes a piece, hailo takes a piece………Net INCREASE in fares.)I’d also respectfully argue that e-hailing is more feature than company……Its funny – no one talks about the channel conflict either. The Uber black car driver takes a ride away from the uber taxi driver, who is competing with the uber X rider……

  32. Salt Shaker

    Out of curiosity, I dialed the phone number on Fred’s old business card. I was fully expecting to hear Acme Plumbing & Heating on the other end, but alas the number has been disconnected. I guess it was immortalized.

  33. Cynthia Schames

    Tried Hailo twice today. Once at 5PM from the Flatiron. No luck– no taxis available.Again at 9pm from TriBeCa. No taxis available.Can’t give them money if they won’t take it .

  34. Cynthia Schames

    That’s an awesome idea. I’d love that job. (well, I mean, if I weren’t busy)